DeepSummary
The podcast discusses the ancient Greek philosopher Thales of Miletus and a battle that supposedly took place during a solar eclipse he predicted around 585 BCE between the kingdoms of Media and Lydia. The details of Thales' life and work are shrouded in uncertainty, as sources about him were written centuries later. There is debate around whether he actually predicted the eclipse, how he might have done so, and the exact date and location of the eclipse and battle.
Herodotus, the main ancient source on the battle, provides differing explanations for why the war between Media and Lydia began, one involving a gruesome act of cannibalism by Scythian archers. There are conflicting accounts from other sources about details like the Median king at the time and where the border was set after the peace treaty ending the war.
In the 16th-19th centuries, astronomers tried calculating which past eclipse Thales might have predicted based on details in ancient texts. The May 28, 585 BCE eclipse emerged as the leading candidate, but there are still issues around whether battlefield conditions would have made the eclipse noticeable. Overall, many uncertainties remain about Thales and this pivotal event linking an astronomical prediction to a historically important battle.
Key Episodes Takeaways
- The ancient Greek philosopher Thales of Miletus is credited with predicting a solar eclipse in 585 BCE that ended a battle between the kingdoms of Media and Lydia, but many details surrounding this event are uncertain.
- Accounts of Thales' life and accomplishments were written centuries later, so there are many debates around his abilities, methods for predicting eclipses, and even basic biographical details.
- The main ancient source on the battle, Herodotus, provides conflicting explanations for why the war started and other details that don't align with other accounts.
- Beginning in the 16th century, astronomers tried calculating which historical eclipse Thales could have predicted based on scattered details in texts, with the May 28, 585 BCE eclipse emerging as the leading candidate.
- However, issues like whether combatants would have noticed the eclipse and discrepancies in ancient sources mean uncertainties remain around the exact date, location, and Thales' role in predicting this pivotal astronomical event.
- The debates around Thales and this battle illustrate the challenges historians face in piecing together ancient events from fragmentary sources written long after the fact.
- The eclipse's connection to ending the fighting makes it an early documented example of an astronomical prediction impacting historical events in a major way.
- Contemporary observations of the 2024 total solar eclipse over North America provide context for ancient interests in and reactions to eclipses.
Top Episodes Quotes
- “And the focus of this research shifted over time. At first, the historical record was the starting point. What actual eclipse could this document be referring to? Astronomers and other researchers would look for an eclipse that exactly matched the account, but over time, it became clear that historical accounts weren't always totally accurate when it came to astronomical phenomena.“ by Graham Glass
- “There are even some arguments that the armies were so preoccupied with fighting that they fought into the night and then decided to lay down their arms when they realized what they had done. This last interpretation, though, doesn't work with translations that also say that night then turned back to day, unless it all took a really long time.“ by Graham Glass
- “To contextualize that a bit, Lydia occupied much of what is now western Turkey, and it was heavily influenced by neighboring Ionia, where Thales was from. The Medes were the people of Media, which occupied whats now northwestern Iran as well as parts of whats now Azerbaijan and Iraq.“ by Graham Glass
- “There's also some debate about exactly where the border between these two kingdoms was set under this treaty. The Kizilarmak river is a logical and kind of widely assumed borderline, but it's not really spelled out specifically in the surviving accounts.“ by Tracy V. Wilson
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Episode Information
Stuff You Missed in History Class
iHeartPodcasts
4/8/24
On May 28, in the year 585 BCE, there was a total solar eclipse during a battle between the kingdoms of Media and Lydia. This eclipse had been predicted by Thales of Miletus, and it led to the ends of both the battle and the war. Maybe.
Research:
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- "Thales." Complete Dictionary of Scientific Biography, vol. 13, Charles Scribner's Sons, 2008, pp. 295-298. Gale In Context: U.S. History, link.gale.com/apps/doc/CX2830904273/GPS?u=mlin_n_melpub&sid=bookmark-GPS&xid=78008eeb. Accessed 18 Mar. 2024.
- Airy, G. B. “On the Eclipses of Agathocles, Thales, and Xerxes.” Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London, vol. 143, 1853, pp. 179–200. JSTOR, http://www.jstor.org/stable/108561. Accessed 21 Mar. 2024.
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- Couprie, Dirk L. “How Thales Was Able to "Predict" a Solar Eclipse without the Help of Alleged Mesopotamian Wisdom.” Early Science and Medicine , 2004, Vol. 9, No. 4 (2004). https://www.jstor.org/stable/4130201
- Downey, Ed. “Thales of Miletus.” Great Neck Publishing. 8/1/2017. Via EBSCO.
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- Leloux, Kevin. “The Battle of the Eclipse (May 28, 585 BC): A Discussion of the Lydo-Median Treaty and the Halys Border.” Polemos 19 (2016). https://hrcak.srce.hr/file/264738
- Miguel Querejeta, ‘On the Eclipse of Thales, Cycles and Probabilities’, Culture And Cosmos, Vol. 15, no. 1, Spring/Summer 2011, pp. 5–16. www.CultureAndCosmos.org
- Mosshammer, Alden A. “Thales' Eclipse.” Transactions of the American Philological Association (1974-2014). 1981, Vol. 111 (1981). Via JSTOR. https://www.jstor.org/stable/284125
- O’Grady, Patricia. “Thales of Miletus (c. 620 B.C.E.—c. 546 B.C.E.).” Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy. https://iep.utm.edu/thales/
- Redlin, Lothar et al. “Thales' Shadow.” Mathematics Magazine , Dec., 2000, Vol. 73, No. 5 (Dec., 2000). Via JSTOR. https://www.jstor.org/stable/2690810
- Stanley, Matthew. “Predicting the Past: Ancient Eclipses and Airy, Newcomb, and Huxley on the Authority of Science.” Isis, vol. 103, no. 2, 2012, pp. 254–77. JSTOR, https://doi.org/10.1086/666355. Accessed 21 Mar. 2024.
- Worthen, Thomas. “Herodotus’ Report on Thales’ Eclipse.” Vol. 3, No. 7. May 1997. https://scholar.lib.vt.edu/ejournals/ElAnt/V3N7/worthen.html
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