DeepSummary
The podcast episode features a discussion with John Ganz about the French thinker René Girard and his theory of mimetic desire, which posits that human desire is not innate but arises from imitating the desires of others, leading to rivalry and violence. Girard traced this idea through novels and then extended it to explain the origins of religion and social order, arguing that myths and rituals developed as ways to channel mimetic violence through scapegoating.
A key aspect of Girard's thought is that the Judeo-Christian tradition uniquely revealed the innocence of the scapegoat victim, unmasking the violence at the foundation of culture. This unleashed a new ethical sensitivity but also created new conflicts in secular modernity without the old myths to structure society. The discussion explores the appeal of Girard's ideas to the right, including Peter Thiel, and their relation to themes of envy, competition, victimhood, and the role of Christianity.
The conversation delves into critiques of Girard, such as his totalizing systematic approach neglecting individual curiosity about others, and potential connections between his insights and critiques of capitalist commodity fetishism. While recognizing the appeal and value of certain aspects of Girard's thought, the speakers also express ambivalence about its limitations and potential for distortion or instrumental use.
Key Episodes Takeaways
- René Girard's theory of mimetic desire posits that human desires arise from imitating and rivaling the desires of others, leading to violence that cultures have channeled through myths and scapegoating.
- Girard argued that the Judeo-Christian tradition uniquely revealed the innocence of the scapegoat victim, unmasking the violence behind societal myths but not providing a new basis for coherent social order.
- Girard's ideas have gained traction on the contemporary right, partly due to their synthesis of literary analysis, anthropology, and apologetics for Christianity, as well as their relation to themes of competition, envy, and victimhood.
- While recognizing value in aspects of Girard's thought, critiques were raised about his systematic totalization neglecting positive human curiosity, potential connections to commodity critique, and questions about whether his Christian framework is necessary for the dynamics he describes.
- The discussion expresses ambivalence about the instrumental uses and distortions of Girard by figures like Peter Thiel, as well as the limitations of his theory's ability to resolve paradoxes of secular modernity.
- Girard's account of how Christianity shapes modern society's ethical sensitivity to victims may illuminate aspects of right-wing thought, but also faces challenges in providing a coherent new foundation for social order.
- The conversation highlights how Girard's ideas resonate with and speak to several key themes of the podcast's exploration of the contemporary right and its intellectual currents.
- While not endorsing Girard's framework as a whole, the discussion suggests mining value from certain aspects of his demanding and provocative theory.
Top Episodes Quotes
- “And the gospel story is not a myth uniting the entire social order. That's the dilemma, right? The gospel unmasks, unveil, but does not provide the coherence needed for a social order in the way that the mythic violence meted out against the scapegoat does provide the substance of a social order.“ by Matt Sitman
- “I think religion is one way among many to kind of resist the encroachment of competitive societies and money into every inch of our lives.“ by Jon Ganz
- “If you're not a christian person, then wouldn't just reading Proust or writing a novel do the same thing? If it's really the same thing?“ by Jon Ganz
- “And I think what he doesn't give enough credit is, is that actual engagement with others, actual engagement with the world, if it is such a big, all inclusive concept, you can't really give it a negative or a positive balance. It's just, you know, we live in a society, of course, you know, others are the most interesting thing to us.“ by Jon Ganz
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Episode Information
Know Your Enemy
Matthew Sitman
2/26/24