DeepSummary
In this podcast episode, Howie, a colleague from the effective altruism community, provides a candid and detailed account of his struggles with mental illnesses such as depression, anxiety, and imposter syndrome, and how they have impacted his personal and professional life. He shares his experiences with severe depressive episodes, including losing his job due to a mental health crisis, being out of commission for over a year, and the challenges he faced in seeking treatment and getting back on his feet.
The second half of the conversation focuses on Howie's advice and insights related to mental health. He cautions against the conventional wisdom that promotes fixing issues like diet, exercise, and sleep before seeking professional help, as this approach can be misguided and ineffective for many people. Instead, he emphasizes the importance of trying various treatments, such as therapy and medication, to find what works best for each individual, as the potential benefits of discovering effective solutions are immense.
Throughout the episode, Howie highlights the supportive nature of the effective altruism community, which has been understanding and accommodating of his struggles. He also shares practical tips and strategies for managing mental health challenges, such as setting realistic goals, identifying potential triggers for negative thought patterns, and seeking support from trusted friends or colleagues.
Key Episodes Takeaways
- Mental illnesses like depression, anxiety, and imposter syndrome can have a significant impact on personal and professional life, even for highly accomplished individuals.
- Seeking professional help through therapy, medication, or a combination of treatments can be incredibly valuable, even if the results are not immediate or guaranteed.
- The effective altruism community has been supportive and accommodating towards individuals struggling with mental health challenges, providing opportunities and accommodations to help them contribute effectively.
- Having a support system and contingency plans in place, such as trusted friends or colleagues who can assist during mental health crises, can be invaluable.
- Excessive empathy and a desire to avoid causing discomfort to others can sometimes hinder productivity and candid communication in professional settings.
- Setting realistic and achievable goals for oneself is important, as holding unrealistic standards can perpetuate negative thought patterns and exacerbate mental health struggles.
- Implementing practical strategies, such as identifying potential triggers for negative thought patterns and creating systems to manage them, can help mitigate the impact of mental health challenges.
- While personal experiences with mental illness can vary, sharing candid accounts can help reduce stigma, provide insight, and offer practical advice for others facing similar struggles.
Top Episodes Quotes
- “I have at various times had things like that set up where it's like, if I send you a one sentence email that things are going to shit. I just need you to call everybody, tell them what's going on. Just handle it.“ by Howie Lempel
- “So I guess one lesson from that experience is I think that, like, some eas have a perception that the community is this sort of like, because of how a bunch of people, like utilitarian values or people who are like, so dedicated to the impartial good, or like whatever that would be like really like cutthroat or ununderstanding or like unsympathetic and sort of like people like hear that you like made a fuck up or that you have a problem or that you have mental illness and be like, well, I am definitely not going to take a risk on that person. And I can't sit here and tell anyone that it isn't harder to get hired if you have some sort of mental illness that makes you worse at your job, which I just definitely do. But I think it just is a huge credit to the EA community that at least I was privileged enough that people were willing to look past that for me and willing to say, look how he definitely has some limitations. Are there still things that he could do that make him a really good hire?“ by Howie Lempel
- “I think it can be really hard to do, especially because a lot of the treatments are things that have a big effect for, like, 20% of people or have a small effect for 40% of people. And it takes weeks, and it's unclear to you until those weeks are done whether or not it's helping. So I think there are a lot of reasons where it can be really hard to get motivated. And so I think we have some ways in which it's just incredibly valuable that it's just easy to lose track of. So, in particular, especially if you're young, but even if you're middle aged, the value of trying treatments and finding out if they're useful for you, the information value there is just so, so high.“ by Howie Lempel
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Episode Information
80,000 Hours Podcast
Rob, Luisa, Keiran, and the 80,000 Hours team
12/27/23
Rebroadcast: this episode was originally released in May 2021.
Today’s episode is one of the most remarkable and really, unique, pieces of content we’ve ever produced (and I can say that because I had almost nothing to do with making it!).
The producer of this show, Keiran Harris, interviewed our mutual colleague Howie about the major ways that mental illness has affected his life and career. While depression, anxiety, ADHD and other problems are extremely common, it’s rare for people to offer detailed insight into their thoughts and struggles — and even rarer for someone as perceptive as Howie to do so.
Links to learn more, summary, and full transcript.
The first half of this conversation is a searingly honest account of Howie’s story, including losing a job he loved due to a depressed episode, what it was like to be basically out of commission for over a year, how he got back on his feet, and the things he still finds difficult today.
The second half covers Howie’s advice. Conventional wisdom on mental health can be really focused on cultivating willpower — telling depressed people that the virtuous thing to do is to start exercising, improve their diet, get their sleep in check, and generally fix all their problems before turning to therapy and medication as some sort of last resort.
Howie tries his best to be a corrective to this misguided attitude and pragmatically focus on what actually matters — doing whatever will help you get better.
Mental illness is one of the things that most often trips up people who could otherwise enjoy flourishing careers and have a large social impact, so we think this could plausibly be one of our more valuable episodes. If you’re in a hurry, we’ve extracted the key advice that Howie has to share in a section below.
Howie and Keiran basically treated it like a private conversation, with the understanding that it may be too sensitive to release. But, after getting some really positive feedback, they’ve decided to share it with the world.
Here are a few quotes from early reviewers:
"I think there’s a big difference between admitting you have depression/seeing a psych and giving a warts-and-all account of a major depressive episode like Howie does in this episode… His description was relatable and really inspiring."
Someone who works on mental health issues said:
"This episode is perhaps the most vivid and tangible example of what it is like to experience psychological distress that I’ve ever encountered. Even though the content of Howie and Keiran’s discussion was serious, I thought they both managed to converse about it in an approachable and not-overly-somber way."
And another reviewer said:
"I found Howie’s reflections on what is actually going on in his head when he engages in negative self-talk to be considerably more illuminating than anything I’ve heard from my therapist."
We also hope that the episode will:
- Help people realise that they have a shot at making a difference in the future, even if they’re experiencing (or have experienced in the past) mental illness, self doubt, imposter syndrome, or other personal obstacles.
- Give insight into what it’s like in the head of one person with depression, anxiety, and imposter syndrome, including the specific thought patterns they experience on typical days and more extreme days. In addition to being interesting for its own sake, this might make it easier for people to understand the experiences of family members, friends, and colleagues — and know how to react more helpfully.
Several early listeners have even made specific behavioral changes due to listening to the episode — including people who generally have good mental health but were convinced it’s well worth the low cost of setting up a plan in case they have problems in the future.
So we think this episode will be valuable for:
- People who have experienced mental health problems or might in future;
- People who have had troubles with stress, anxiety, low mood, low self esteem, imposter syndrome and similar issues, even if their experience isn’t well described as ‘mental illness’;
- People who have never experienced these problems but want to learn about what it’s like, so they can better relate to and assist family, friends or colleagues who do.
- In other words, we think this episode could be worthwhile for almost everybody.
Just a heads up that this conversation gets pretty intense at times, and includes references to self-harm and suicidal thoughts.
If you don’t want to hear or read the most intense section, you can skip the chapter called ‘Disaster’. And if you’d rather avoid almost all of these references, you could skip straight to the chapter called ‘80,000 Hours’.
We’ve collected a large list of high quality resources for overcoming mental health problems in our links section.
If you’re feeling suicidal or have thoughts of harming yourself right now, there are suicide hotlines at National Suicide Prevention Lifeline in the US (800-273-8255) and Samaritans in the UK (116 123). You may also want to find and save a number for a local service where possible.
Producer: Keiran Harris
Audio mastering: Ben Cordell
Transcriptions: Sofia Davis-Fogel