DeepSummary
In this podcast episode, renowned scientist Stephen Wolfram and neuroscientist Karl Friston engage in a thought-provoking discussion about the nature of observers, agency, and the fundamental principles that govern the universe. Wolfram, known for his work on the Wolfram Physics Project, and Friston, the originator of the Free Energy Principle, delve into questions surrounding the properties that define an observer, the persistence of objects over time, and the concept of agency.
The discussion explores the idea of observers actively seeking predictable paths and minimizing surprise, as proposed by Friston's Free Energy Principle. Wolfram challenges this notion, questioning whether the universe could be so unpredictable that coherent observers might not be possible. The conversation also touches on the role of coarse-graining and compression in how observers perceive the world, and the implications of this for artificial intelligence systems.
Ultimately, the dialogue highlights the profound questions surrounding the nature of observers, the emergence of agency, and the fundamental principles that govern the universe. Wolfram and Friston offer unique perspectives, drawing from their respective fields, and leaving the audience with a deeper appreciation for the complexities involved in understanding the nature of observers and the universe they inhabit.
Key Episodes Takeaways
- The nature of observers and the properties that define them are fundamental questions explored in this episode.
- The Free Energy Principle, proposed by Karl Friston, suggests that observers seek predictable paths and minimize surprise, while Stephen Wolfram challenges this idea, questioning the limits of predictability in the universe.
- The concept of agency and the ability of observers to actively shape their environment through decision-making and action is a central theme.
- The role of coarse-graining and compression in how observers perceive and interpret the world is discussed, with implications for artificial intelligence systems.
- The persistence of objects over time and the idea of "thingness" are explored, highlighting the complexities of defining and understanding the nature of observers.
- The discussion touches on the fundamental principles that govern the universe and how they relate to the emergence of observers and agency.
- Concepts from physics, neuroscience, and computational theory are brought together to offer unique perspectives on the nature of observers and agency.
- The dialogue leaves the audience with a deeper appreciation for the profound questions surrounding the nature of observers and the universe they inhabit.
Top Episodes Quotes
- “No, no, you're perfectly right. I mean, that's almost word for word how I would portray the teleological implications of the free energy principle to psychologists and neurobiologists and other sort of theoreticians in the life sciences.“ by Karl Friston
- “I am curious when it comes to things like control theory and the whole sort of idea of, I mean, control theory is a much more limited way of thinking about what can you control? But I'm sort of curious in, I mean, if I were to try to, let's say my environment was some, well, how unpredictable an environment can I be in and still achieve enough control to be your kind of observer?“ by Stephen Wolfram
- “So the twist here is that you're making a distinction. Well, the move from, say, physics, or the movement which makes the physics that is described by the free energy principle distinct from the usual applications of the pathogenal formulation, is that you've got a distinction between the states and observer, and that which is observed, which now allows or licenses you to interpret the observing states as holding beliefs about the observed states.“ by Karl Friston
- “Certain kinds of things. An observer, I think a true agential observer, has the capacity to act upon the thing that's generating the data. And it is in that acting that you get the curiosity and as you say, ignoring and in fact, actively avoiding that noisy, ambiguous, potentially boundary destroying, dissipative part of the universe. And sticking to those paths.“ by Karl Friston
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Episode Information
Machine Learning Street Talk (MLST)
Machine Learning Street Talk (MLST)
10/29/23
Please support us! https://www.patreon.com/mlst https://discord.gg/aNPkGUQtc5 https://twitter.com/MLStreetTalk
YT version (with intro not found here) https://youtu.be/6iaT-0Dvhnc This is the epic special edition show you have been waiting for! With two of the most brilliant scientists alive today. Atoms, things, agents, ... observers. What even defines an "observer" and what properties must all observers share? How do objects persist in our universe given that their material composition changes over time? What does it mean for a thing to be a thing? And do things supervene on our lower-level physical reality? What does it mean for a thing to have agency? What's the difference between a complex dynamical system with and without agency? Could a rock or an AI catflap have agency? Can the universe be factorised into distinct agents, or is agency diffused? Have you ever pondered about these deep questions about reality? Prof. Friston and Dr. Wolfram have spent their entire careers, some 40+ years each thinking long and hard about these very questions and have developed significant frameworks of reference on their respective journeys (the Wolfram Physics project and the Free Energy principle).
Panel: MIT Ph.D Keith Duggar Production: Dr. Tim Scarfe Refs: TED Talk with Stephen: https://www.ted.com/talks/stephen_wolfram_how_to_think_computationally_about_ai_the_universe_and_everything https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2023/10/how-to-think-computationally-about-ai-the-universe-and-everything/ TOC 00:00:00 - Show kickoff
00:02:38 - Wolfram gets to grips with FEP
00:27:08 - How much control does an agent/observer have
00:34:52 - Observer persistence, what universe seems like to us
00:40:31 - Black holes
00:45:07 - Inside vs outside
00:52:20 - Moving away from the predictable path
00:55:26 - What can observers do
01:06:50 - Self modelling gives agency
01:11:26 - How do you know a thing has agency?
01:22:48 - Deep link between dynamics, ruliad and AI
01:25:52 - Does agency entail free will? Defining Agency
01:32:57 - Where do I probe for agency?
01:39:13 - Why is the universe the way we see it?
01:42:50 - Alien intelligence
01:43:40 - The hard problem of Observers
01:46:20 - Summary thoughts from Wolfram
01:49:35 - Factorisability of FEP
01:57:05 - Patreon interview teaser