DeepSummary
The podcast episode features an interview with Professor Giorgos Kallis, an ecological economist and author of books on degrowth economics. Kallis explains the concept of degrowth economics, which challenges the constant need for economic growth and seeks an alternative societal structure that supports well-being without relying on GDP growth.
Kallis discusses the flaws in the ideas of Thomas Malthus, a 18th century philosopher whose theories on population growth and resource scarcity have been heavily criticized and misinterpreted. Kallis argues that Malthus' assumptions were based on theological beliefs and faulty logic, rather than empirical evidence.
The conversation covers the importance of personal actions and reclaiming the commons in achieving degrowth goals, as well as the role of technology in addressing environmental challenges. Kallis emphasizes the need to move away from an ideology that solely relies on technological solutions and instead embrace a more balanced approach.
Key Episodes Takeaways
- Degrowth economics challenges the constant need for economic growth and seeks an alternative societal structure that supports well-being without relying on GDP growth.
- Thomas Malthus' ideas on population growth and resource scarcity were based on faulty assumptions and theological beliefs, rather than empirical evidence.
- Personal actions, reclaiming the commons, and embracing a more balanced approach to technology are important aspects of achieving degrowth goals.
- The climate community and environmental movement need to address the "elephant in the room" of economic growth as a contributing factor to environmental problems.
- Degrowth economics is not about stopping economic activity altogether, but rather about finding a stable and fulfilling alternative to the constant growth imperative.
- A genuine desire for change, rather than just fear or avoidance of worst-case scenarios, is necessary for the degrowth movement to be successful.
- The degrowth movement is not against technological progress or the development of new technologies, which will be necessary for addressing environmental challenges.
- Reclaiming and providing common resources and services, such as housing, utilities, and education, can help secure basic needs and reduce the reliance on economic growth.
Top Episodes Quotes
- “The growth is not about decreasing the economy, stopping economic activity, stopping activity in the markets, in the high streets, and that definitely not what it is. That's what is called recession or depression or great depression. And this is what we have experienced as economists that are bound to grow and they don't grow, and then all sorts of ills come about. So the growth is not about that is rather than trying to escape from this either grow or die dynamic and create something different, create something that is stable and that it's fulfilling without being there.“ by Giorgos Kallis
- “There are many of them. I don't know where to begin with, but the standard one is that it is about decreasing the economy, stopping economic activity, stopping activity in the markets, in the high streets, and that definitely not what it is.“ by Giorgos Kallis
- “Because we need to want something else if we don't want it. And it's just like some academics saying that because of climate change, this should happen. This will never happen. It has to be a desire by people to want something different. And it has to be a desire that it's not only a desire driven by fear or by avoiding a worst outcome. This has never been a very mobilizing, psychosocial, let's say, driver for changing things.“ by Giorgos Kallis
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Episode Information
The Climate Pod
The Climate Pod
3/13/24
Over the last century, economic growth, as measured by increases in countries' Gross Domestic Product, has been the key indicator of success. And while GDP has skyrocketed in many countries, so has fossil fuel use, deforestation, and the destruction of natural ecosystems. On top of that, inequality has actually gotten worse in many countries and incomes, adjusted for inflation, have stagnated for many parts of these "growing" economies. It seems this relentless focus on growth has not created the kind of world that most people want to live in.
Professor Giorgos Kallis is an ecological economist, political ecologist, and Catalan Institution for Research and Advanced Studies Professor at the Institute of Environmental Science and Technology in Barcelona. He's also the author of several books about degrowth economics - the field of economics that questions the insatiable need for growth and seeks an alternative societal structure that supports everyone, regardless of a country's ability to grow GDP. Professor Kallis joins the show to talk about degrowth economics and why it is critical to achieve the degrowth goals if we want to reduce the negative impacts of the climate crisis.
We also discuss the role that 18th century philosopher and theologian Thomas Malthus had on modern economics, why he was so wrong about inequality and limits, and some of the ideas that get attributed to him that weren't actually his.
Check out these two books by Professor Kallis:
"Limits: Why Malthus Was Wrong and Why Environmentalists Should Care"
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