DeepSummary
The podcast discusses the anthropologist Margaret Mead and her involvement in early research on psychedelic drugs and their potential therapeutic uses. It explores her utopian vision of using science to shape human evolution and transcend the limits of the human species. The transcript also covers Mead's collaboration with her husband Gregory Bateson, their role in the founding of cybernetics, and their connections to the CIA and psychological warfare during World War II.
The discussion delves into the history of psychedelic research, including the shift from scientific inquiry in the 1950s to the counterculture movement and religious associations in the 1960s. It examines the positive and negative lessons that can be drawn from this period, particularly the need for a more grounded and practical approach to introducing new substances into society while considering their social and cultural implications.
The episode explores the interplay between science, utopianism, and societal change, highlighting the idea of "vivid utopias" - realizable, concrete visions for a better future shaped by scientific advancements. It also touches on the potential of psychedelics for therapeutic purposes and the importance of taking an "anthropological approach" in their responsible integration into society.
Key Episodes Takeaways
- Margaret Mead and Gregory Bateson played a significant role in early psychedelic research and the founding of cybernetics, highlighting the interdisciplinary nature of scientific inquiry in the 20th century.
- The history of psychedelic research offers valuable lessons, including the need for a more grounded, practical approach to introducing new substances into society while considering their social and cultural implications.
- Mead's concept of 'vivid utopias' - realizable, concrete visions for a better future shaped by science in collaboration with other societal factors - offers a hopeful perspective on the potential of scientific advancements.
- The shift from scientific inquiry in the 1950s to the association of psychedelics with the counterculture and religious movements in the 1960s marked a turning point that limited their broader therapeutic potential.
- The idea of an 'anthropological approach' to psychedelic research, which considers the social and cultural roles of these substances, is crucial for their responsible integration into society.
- The intersection of science, utopianism, and societal change is a recurring theme, highlighting the complex relationship between scientific advancements and their societal implications.
- The episode explores the potential of psychedelics for therapeutic purposes, as well as the ethical dilemmas and controversies surrounding their research and use throughout history.
- The lives and work of Mead and Bateson exemplify the interdisciplinary and boundary-pushing nature of scientific inquiry in the 20th century, as well as the tensions between scientific idealism and pragmatic considerations.
Top Episodes Quotes
- “She actually wrote this in 1924 when she was young, quite young. She said she was doing her science not just for the present, but for the people of 100 years in the future, which happens to be 2024.“ by Benjamin Breen
- “I do think that was a missed opportunity. The choice to make psychedelics into a niche topic of interest to people interested in mystical experiences as opposed to just exploring their broad based use in society as a medicine, really limited them and made them associated with a single subculture, basically the counterculture.“ by Benjamin Breen
- “I like how Margaret Mead was talking about a vivid utopia, a realizable, practical, broad based good that can be achieved not only by science, but partly by science. Science in collaboration with other factors in the world.“ by Benjamin Breen
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Episode Information
Sean Carroll's Mindscape: Science, Society, Philosophy, Culture, Arts, and Ideas
Sean Carroll | Wondery
2/26/24
The twentieth century was something, wasn't it? Margaret Mead, as well as her onetime-husband Gregory Bateson, managed to play roles in several of its key developments: social anthropology and its impact on sex & gender mores, psychedelic drugs and their potential use for therapeutic purposes, and the origin of cybernetics, to name a few. Benjamin Breen discusses this impactful trajectory in his new book, Tripping on Utopia: Margaret Mead, the Cold War, and the Troubled Birth of Psychedelic Science. We talk about Mead and Bateson, the early development of psychedelic drugs, and how the possibility of a realistic utopia didn't always seem so far away.
Blog post with transcript: https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2024/02/26/267-benjamin-breen-on-margaret-mead-psychedelics-and-utopia/
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Benjamin Breen received his Ph.D. in history from the University of Texas at Austin. He is currently an associate professor of history at the University of California, Santa Cruz. Among his awards are the National Endowment for the Humanities Award for Faculty and the William H. Welch Medal of the American Association for the History of Medicine. He writes on Substack at Res Obscura.
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